http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2013/jul/13/pilot-ok-but-under-arrest-after-glider-goes-down-on-badger-mountain/

Doesnt sound like the Vitek we know.

Some zealous authoritarian maybe made him mad.

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 12:18:18 AM UTC-4, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2013/jul/13/pilot-ok-but-under-arrest-after-glider-goes-down-on-badger-mountain/

Well, this is strike #2 but we don't know yet what set off either party. In general, the guy with the gun and badge wins the first round until things get cleared up! Perhaps some legal scholar on this group could give some advise for the US-readers of this site as to how to behave or react when approached by a cop after an off field landing. What am I supposed to do, what information am I obliged to provide, which not?
Perhaps clubs should create a fact-sheet about gliders and the way they operate and distribute it to the local police stations to inform the local cops that they are not looking at something that could unleash a second 9/11?

Uli
'GM'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

This video has 24 minutes of a law school professor telling you to not talk to the police, followed by 24 minutes of a senior police investigator telling you to not talk to the police. It's well done and it convinced me that once I give the police my id and my name, the next and only thing that I should say (repeatedly) is "I want to talk to my lawyer before answering that question." That may lead to my arrest, but so be it.

One exception to my rule, if I get stopped on the highway and the officer asks me "Do you know how fast you were going?" my stock reply is "I believe I was driving at a safe speed for the conditions." The purpose of the officer's question is to get me to tell him, on the record, that I was speeding.. That confession would make my conviction a near certainty.

Hi,

I agree with the comment below. I have always found Vitek to be a very
friendly gentleman. I don't understand why he would not have cooperated -
so there must be more to the story. I look forward to hearing his side.

Paul Remde
______________________________

wrote in message
...

Doesnt sound like the Vitek we know.

Some zealous authoritarian maybe made him mad.

It should not lead to an arrest. What charge can be applied? What probable cause can be used? Remaining silent? If read the Miranda statement you are encouraged to remain silent. Heavy handed police who probially do not know the law. I hope Vitek get rich off this one.

Robert


On Sunday, July 14, 2013 7:52:15 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc This video has 24 minutes of a law school professor telling you to not talk to the police, followed by 24 minutes of a senior police investigator telling you to not talk to the police. It's well done and it convinced me that once I give the police my id and my name, the next and only thing that I should say (repeatedly) is "I want to talk to my lawyer before answering that question." That may lead to my arrest, but so be it.....

In new America getting arrested for landing out needs to be part of preflight planning.

It's hard for me to imagine what question I might be asked upon a landout
that I'd be unwilling to answer. I am a firm believer that it can be
counter productive to **** on the Devil's boots, but I wasn't there.

Let's wait and see...


> wrote in message
...
> Doesnt sound like the Vitek we know.
>
> Some zealous authoritarian maybe made him mad.

On Saturday, July 13, 2013 9:18:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2013/jul/13/pilot-ok-but-under-arrest-after-glider-goes-down-on-badger-mountain/

Note the usual error with reference to "pilot’s license."

As my mother was 100% Magyar (Hungarian), I find the comment about "originally from the Czech Republic" notable, particularly since Vitek has lived in the Pacific NW for more than 20 years. BTW, I understand he fled from the then Czechoslovakia,a Communist state within the Eastern Bloc. Actually, even if my parents were 5th generation from Kansas, that comment would still appear notable.

On Saturday, July 13, 2013 9:18:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2013/jul/13/pilot-ok-but-under-arrest-after-glider-goes-down-on-badger-mountain/

Hmm, something might have been said that was perceived as a bit derogatory? and it doesn't take much sometimes. Last year in the summer I made a landing (C180) on a full moon in the desert on a paved but unmaintained road in San Bernadino County Ca. To pick up my son who was loading one of our trucks at a mine. I made my final over the BNSF tracks and there were 2 locomotives moving east to west and I passed right over them.

I taxied up within 100' of the tracks turned around and shut down got out waved at the men in the locos and made cell contact with my son who was passing on old 66 a couple miles away. He proceed into the mine to loading it was 11:00 pm I pulled a chair out and set up camp on the horizontal stab sat down with the iPad some water and was relaxing to some music minding my own business.

The plan was he would load a load that would go up to Henderson Nv on Monday morn, it was Friday night, he would park the truck by the tracks and walk across them to the plane, I take him home, I would fly him back out there early Monday and he would go, he would be home for the weekend and not backtrack the truck costing an extra 400 miles and I would get to fly and my company pays for it. I've landed on this road several times.

About 12:30am headlights come speeding down the road and a San Berdo Sheriff shows up. He pulls within I'd say 30' of the plane and sits there for a while, I went to him He asked if I was ok I replied I was, He asked what I was doing, I told him just what I stated above. No bull **** no indignation no disrespect.

He asked for my D/L I gave it to him he ran it thru dispatch Asked me if I had any weapons and a few other questions, I gave him one of my biz cards also. Pretty soon dispatch returned and said the plane is registered to the same guy who is on the D/L. We chit chatted a bit he bought my story told me to be careful and left.

No bull **** no indignation no disrespect. I guess I was lucky or is it that I cooperated?

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:18:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> In new America getting arrested for landing out needs to be part of preflight planning.

Our Constitutional rights don't mean anything any more. Big Government rules the roost!

-Jim

At 17:52 14 July 2013, Jim wrote:
>On Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:18:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>> In new America getting arrested for landing out needs to be part of
>preflight planning.
>
>Our Constitutional rights don't mean anything any more. Big Government
>rules the roost!
>
>-Jim
>
That is not big government, that is a dickhead with a badge, you get them
all over the world but over there it is just that people get to hear about
it.

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:37:56 AM UTC-6, Glidergeek wrote:
> On Saturday, July 13, 2013 9:18:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>
> > http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2013/jul/13/pilot-ok-but-under-arrest-after-glider-goes-down-on-badger-mountain/
>
>
>
> Hmm, something might have been said that was perceived as a bit derogatory? and it doesn't take much sometimes. Last year in the summer I made a landing (C180) on a full moon in the desert on a paved but unmaintained road in San Bernadino County Ca. To pick up my son who was loading one of our trucks at a mine. I made my final over the BNSF tracks and there were 2 locomotives moving east to west and I passed right over them.
>
>
>
> I taxied up within 100' of the tracks turned around and shut down got out waved at the men in the locos and made cell contact with my son who was passing on old 66 a couple miles away. He proceed into the mine to loading it was 11:00 pm I pulled a chair out and set up camp on the horizontal stab sat down with the iPad some water and was relaxing to some music minding my own business.
>
>
>
> The plan was he would load a load that would go up to Henderson Nv on Monday morn, it was Friday night, he would park the truck by the tracks and walk across them to the plane, I take him home, I would fly him back out there early Monday and he would go, he would be home for the weekend and not backtrack the truck costing an extra 400 miles and I would get to fly and my company pays for it. I've landed on this road several times.
>
>
>
> About 12:30am headlights come speeding down the road and a San Berdo Sheriff shows up. He pulls within I'd say 30' of the plane and sits there for a while, I went to him He asked if I was ok I replied I was, He asked what I was doing, I told him just what I stated above. No bull **** no indignation no disrespect.
>
>
>
> He asked for my D/L I gave it to him he ran it thru dispatch Asked me if I had any weapons and a few other questions, I gave him one of my biz cards also. Pretty soon dispatch returned and said the plane is registered to the same guy who is on the D/L. We chit chatted a bit he bought my story told me to be careful and left.
>
>
>
> No bull **** no indignation no disrespect. I guess I was lucky or is it that I cooperated?

Perhaps I'm lucky but that's been my experience as well. I recall being requested to appear as an expert witness at a trial in a remote mountain community without an airport nearby. No airport, no problem. I flew over in my airplane, found two patrol cars blocking off a mile of highway outside town as promised and landed between them. I left the airplane on a scenic overlook with a patrolman guarding it. Late in the afternoon we reversed the process and I was on my way. The county had found that section of road to be a serviceable runway and it was much cheaper than building an airport.

Yes, there are jerks with a badge but more often than not they'd just like to avoid the paperwork that results from a confrontation. A smile and a "little respect for the law" goes a long way. I've found most cops have very mixed feelings about the "war on terror" and DHS. The like all the COP toys the feds funded but they don't like the questionable constitutionality.

Jim wrote, On 7/14/2013 10:52 AM:
> On Sunday, July 14, 2013 11:18:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>> In new America getting arrested for landing out needs to be part of preflight planning.
>
> Our Constitutional rights don't mean anything any more. Big Government rules the roost!

Vitek flew the next day (see his OLC posting on Saturday - great
flight!), so he apparently isn't in jail and did get the glider back. I
have no idea what went on, besides what was in the article.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

wrote, On 7/14/2013 7:30 AM:
> It should not lead to an arrest. What charge can be applied? What
> probable cause can be used? Remaining silent? If read the Miranda
> statement you are encouraged to remain silent. Heavy handed police
> who probially do not know the law. I hope Vitek get rich off this
> one.

I hope everyone calms down, starts smiling and shaking hands, and
everyone knows how to handle the situation better next time.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

http://pro.kpq-am.tritonflex.com/upload/071313glider.mp3

An audio interview stating that the pilot would not tell them who he was or who owned the glider and they did not learn that until they placed him under arrest and located his licenses. At Region 9 Moriarty this year we had a safety talk from J.D. Huss with the ABQ FSDO in which he provided an outline of what can be requested during a ramp check or similar situation(land out)and by whom. Local law enforcement may request information from you if you're in their jurisdiction.

You do have the right to remain silent but from my layman's understanding, Miranda Rights can be given as handcuffs are being slapped on your wrists. I think the lesson should be to cooperate with local authorities if you have nothing to hide and try to educate them and the owner of that nice field you just landed in.

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 7:52:15 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
>
>
>
> This video has 24 minutes of a law school professor telling you to not talk to the police, followed by 24 minutes of a senior police investigator telling you to not talk to the police. It's well done and it convinced me that once I give the police my id and my name, the next and only thing that I should say (repeatedly) is "I want to talk to my lawyer before answering that question." That may lead to my arrest, but so be it.
>
>
>
> One exception to my rule, if I get stopped on the highway and the officer asks me "Do you know how fast you were going?" my stock reply is "I believe I was driving at a safe speed for the conditions." The purpose of the officer's question is to get me to tell him, on the record, that I was speeding. That confession would make my conviction a near certainty.

Actually not talking to the police is a bad idea on a landout. Most of what you have been taught about not talking is from a ramp checks or some type of enforcement activity. Landout's are situation where you have to shift from pilot to ambassador for soaring and flying in general. The local police did not come looking for you, you came into their jurisdiction and they are usually just doing there job. They are trying to figure out is someone hurt, is your plane damaged, did you do damage to property. Once you have addressed those they can relax.

They are going to ask for identification so they are sure who they are dealing with and for their reports. It is a good opportunity for you to educate about the sport and provide the basis information they are looking for. Be polite, explain that it was necessary for your safety to land where you did. Help secure the plane and the area so that no other property is likely to be damaged. Thank the officer for his/her help.

Yes, there are a few bad apples out there; but most officers enjoy a diversion that is unique.

To give a minor bit of perspective, the week before during the Region 8 contest, hang gliders were having a contest of their own at the same time some 50 miles west of Ephrata. One of their guys got a bit low and a local took exception to this. He dug out his shotgun and fired off a couple of rounds claiming that the hang glider was trespassing in his airspace (no joke). The incident was reported and the local got hauled in. The tongue in cheek comment around the contest was this happened east of the Cascades... locals shoot first and talk later. There obviously is a bit of truth to that joke. Perhaps Vitek had issues that we don't know about during the situation.

Everytime I land out, I call 9-1-1 and tell the operator, "This is NOT an emergency. I'm calling to let you know I've landed my glider (yada yada yada)" I don't want the town to come out with all their rescue equipment for nothing. One time, the 911 operator asked "where I was". Not knowing the exact location(gps wasn't on the screen to show Lat and Long at that moment), I said, "I'm over on the east side of Wake County. The operator said, "No, I see you on the west side of Johnston County (they abut each other). When the landowner/farmer came out to see me, I asked him which county I was in. He said, "Wake." Then he said, "No, the county line is right over there so you are in Johnston County, just as the 911 operator said."


I once landed at a former county airport that is now used for "first responder" driver training. They set out a course on the runway with traffic cones. The runway does have "X"s painted on it. The day I landed there, no traffic was on the runway and I found a length clear of cones. No problems. I walked to the former FBO, now a classroom. It was full of policemen. Soon, I had about five squad cars surrounding my glider. But they didn't give me the treatment that Vitek received. They were all just wondering what the glider was and why I was there.

I do hope Vitek educated the local constables regarding gliders landing out..

Ray

On Monday, July 15, 2013 12:20:04 PM UTC-4, rlovinggood wrote:
>
> I once landed at a former county airport that is now used for "first responder" driver training. They set out a course on the runway with traffic cones. The runway does have "X"s painted on it. The day I landed there, no traffic was on the runway and I found a length clear of cones. No problems. I walked to the former FBO, now a classroom. It was full of policemen. Soon, I had about five squad cars surrounding my glider. But they didn't give me the treatment that Vitek received. They were all just wondering what the glider was and why I was there.
>

I've been personally associated with about a dozen landouts where the cops got involved in one way shape or form. All but one was painless.

I think the secret is to start by realizing these guys and gals are people, like anyone else. If the first thing they get from a pilot is a ration of attitude, that's probably not a good start. Conversely, if they start out hardass, I view it as my job to start by defusing the situation. Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. You guys obviously have a lot of important things to do. How can we make this work? Sure, there's the hard case that's just out to make your life miserable. In that situation, maybe a cool (but not cold) shoulder is the only solution.

Example. Came up about 20 miles short on final glide and landed uneventfully in a cut hay field adjoining a small recreation area over a hedgerow (baseball fields and a playground). After securing the glider, I went looking for the farmhouse and field owner.

When I got back 20 minutes later, there were two cop cars and the associated cops standing there looking around. I walked up and said something to the effect "I'm guessing you're looking for me?" The first cop came out strong. We were looking for a body. How can you not call in a crash? Endangering public. etc. The other cop obviously wanted to be the proverbial "good cop" but wasn't opening his mouth.

My response was to be apologetic without admitting any wrong doing. "I totally understand - didn't realize the protocol here. When this happens in other jurisdictions (sowing some seeds of doubt), they've specifically asked to not be bothered unless there's an injury or damage. I was actually out looking for the farmer to make sure I wasn't in his way. I had no idea anyone was out looking for me. etc. " Just wanted to tone things down a little and see the reaction.

This made it possible for the second cop to step in and, as they say, cooler heads prevailed. Where we ended up was that "the next time I land in Washington township, I'll be sure to call the non-emergency number son they know what's up if calls start coming in about a plane crash."

By the end of it, the good cop was driving me around looking for the farmer and stopping by the quickie-mart grabbing a cold soda.

Not in anyway implying that Vitek had "good cop" options. Just suggesting that immediately going on the offensive and quoting only name/rank/serial number may be the moral high ground, but it may not be the practical solution to de-escalating.

My. 0.02
Erik Mann (P3)

Papa3 wrote, On 7/15/2013 11:14 AM:
> When I got back 20 minutes later, there were two cop cars and the
> associated cops standing there looking around. I walked up and said
> something to the effect "I'm guessing you're looking for me?" The
> first cop came out strong. We were looking for a body. How can you
> not call in a crash? Endangering public. etc. The other cop
> obviously wanted to be the proverbial "good cop" but wasn't opening
> his mouth.

When I used to land out, I'd leave a note in the glider in plain sight
that said "Pilot OK, gone to find the farmer and a phone". That was
pre-1994, when it wasn't common to carry a cell phone.

Now, it's sounds like a good idea to call 911 (if you don't know the
non-emergency number) in addition to leaving that note.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 12:18:18 AM UTC-4, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2013/jul/13/pilot-ok-but-under-arrest-after-glider-goes-down-on-badger-mountain/

As an attorney I have very technical legal advice for a situation like this: just be cool. You're not doing anything illegal, so don't act like you might be. A lot of states have a requirement that you produce ID on demand - so go ahead and show them your ID. Most cops are going to have very little to zero experience with aviation matters, and, ironically, they are probably mostly worried about getting into trouble themselves by not handling the situation correctly. They might want to keep you at the scene until they can get a supervisor on the phone. Be cool, hang out, make friends.

Of course, you might get a cop who is freaked out for some reason. You are not going to win an argument or a fight with a cop. Please don't try. If you find yourself getting arrested, again, try to be cool about it. They will be really sorry later when they find out you didn't do anything wrong and you are suing the department.

On Monday, July 15, 2013 2:14:10 PM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:

> I think the secret is to start by realizing these guys and gals are people, like anyone else. If the first thing they get from a pilot is a ration of attitude, that's probably not a good start.

I really wish that I could count on "Andy of Mayberry" showing up when I land out. But with my luck it will probably be "Barney Fife" (with one bullet in his revolver), and I need to be on my guard by keeping things professional, formal, and within the law. A good cop will have absolutely no problem with that.

If a bad cop shows up, acting professional, formal, relaxed and within the law might give him an excuse to do something unpleasant, like arrest me, but as long as I keep my hands in full view and act compliant and respectful, the downside of that is fairly limited.

Could I "talk pretty" and convince a bad cop to treat me nice? Maybe. Maybe not. If a cop starts out by thinking that I've done something wrong, or if he is uneasy or disoriented in an unusual situation, my "fast and pretty talk" may rub him the wrong way. Criminals often try to "sweet talk" the cops... at least they do on TV, and it hardly ever works. The fact that you're innocent is irrelevant. All that matters is the cop's frame of reference and his mood.

I agree that "pretty talk" will probably work on a good cop, but keeping things formal and professional will also work with a properly trained cop. I don't buy that providing only the documents and legally required information will turn a good cop into a bad cop. I don't buy that, after providing the legally required ID and papers, saying "I want to talk to my attorney before I answer that question" is being a hard-ass or uncooperative. Will a cop see it that way? Maybe, but they are big boys. They will weigh whether it is more trouble to take me downtown or let me go.

It's nice to hear your tales of land outs from a kinder and gentler time and I hope that that approach will continue to work for you. If I were a "soccer mom" I might try it. Would I ever try to "talk pretty" to a cop in a routine non-land-out situation, like say a traffic stop? No. I don't see why I should interact with the police any differently in a land-out. The land-out for the officer is a non-routine situation and where his behavior is therefore less unpredictable. I will pass up this opportunity to introduce someone to the wonderful sport of soaring.

In article >,
son_of_flubber > wrote:

> On Monday, July 15, 2013 2:14:10 PM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:
>
> > I think the secret is to start by realizing these guys and gals are people,
> > like anyone else. If the first thing they get from a pilot is a ration of
> > attitude, that's probably not a good start.
>
> I really wish that I could count on "Andy of Mayberry" showing up when I land
> out. But with my luck it will probably be "Barney Fife" (with one bullet in
> his revolver), and I need to be on my guard by keeping things professional,
> formal, and within the law. A good cop will have absolutely no problem with
> that.
>

I have had a good number of landouts, maybe 25 or so. Only had cops show
up maybe once or twice, ask if I needed help, then left. I have been
pulled over twice by bored cops curious about the "weird trailer". All
good fun.

Unfortunately, I think times are changing and law enforcement agencies
are increasingly taking on more of an authoritarian attitude to go along
with the military equipment they are sporting. Sometime around, oh
September 11, 2001, Barney saw his chance and locked Andy in the cell
with Otis. Now Barney's on the phone ordering bullets by the millions...

On Saturday, July 13, 2013 11:18:18 PM UTC-5, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2013/jul/13/pilot-ok-but-under-arrest-after-glider-goes-down-on-badger-mountain/

Let's all keep in mind that when we land out on private property we are TRESPASSING! Now, the law permits a trespass in certain circumstances, thereby excusing what might otherwise be a criminal offense and minimizing the damages that might have to be paid the landowner for the civil aspect of the offense. But, at a minimum, the trespasser is still liable for any damages he/she causes (e.g., damage to growing and valuable crops.)

My counsel would be that all glider pilots remain humble and cooperate fully with law enforcement when they come to investigate. You may have a right to be silent in your own home or on the public streets, but if you get caught on someone else's property you better be able to explain what you are doing there or the cops are within their rights to run you in.

I also agree with some of the other posts that it is an EXCELLENT IDEA TO CALL 911 or the local Sheriff's office just to let them know you are alright and that they do not need to send an ambulance. Put yourself in their shoes -- what are they suppose to do if they get a frantic phone call from a citizen saying that they just witnesses an airplane crash? I suspect they would much prefer to not have to scramble the crash trucks and come screaming out to a farmer's field if they don't really have to.

Phil Umphres,N24HC

On Monday, July 15, 2013 5:39:17 PM UTC-4, WB wrote:
> Barney saw his chance and locked Andy in the cell
> with Otis. Now Barney's on the phone ordering bullets by the millions...

Ha! Good old Barney.

Speaking of phones, I really like the idea suggested earlier in this thread of calling 911 when you land out, telling them that you are uninjured, that there is no fire and that you don't need assistance. Proactive communication made possible by the cell phone diverts the security apparatus. I will add this to my play book.

A friend of mine landed out within visual range of an airport control tower (no radar), he did not call in and the control tower dispatched the police and fire department to his location. A simple phone call would have saved a lot of aggravation.

On Monday, July 15, 2013 6:42:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>You may have a right to be silent in your own home or on the public streets, but if you get caught on someone else's property you better be able to explain what you are doing there or the cops are within their rights to run you in.<

I see no reason to say anything other than "I don't have an engine, I had no choice but to land here." Hand them ID, registration and insurance contact info. If the officer feels that you have broken a law, it is even more imperative to say nothing (and you most certainly do have the right to remain silent.) Your goal is to avoid wrongful conviction. Wrongful arrest is not the end of the world.

Watch a few minutes of the video that I posted above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc and see how statements by innocent people get them wrongfully convicted. Do you think that you are smart/lucky enough to avoid saying something that could be misconstrued? Do you think you are smart enough to know when you can speak freely to an officer and when you cannot? It is a much safer bet in any encounter with law enforcement to say nothing and wait until you have professional legal counsel.

On Monday, July 15, 2013 5:23:12 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Monday, July 15, 2013 2:14:10 PM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:
>
>
>
> > I think the secret is to start by realizing these guys and gals are people, like anyone else. If the first thing they get from a pilot is a ration of attitude, that's probably not a good start.
>
>
>
> I really wish that I could count on "Andy of Mayberry" showing up when I land out. But with my luck it will probably be "Barney Fife" (with one bullet in his revolver), and I need to be on my guard by keeping things professional, formal, and within the law. A good cop will have absolutely no problem with that.
>

Don't know exactly where you got "talk pretty" or anything remotely like it in all of the above. The majority of cops are just moms/dads, sister/brothers like anyone else out to do a job, get paid, and not get killed in the process. The simpler times I talk of are mostly all post 9/11 - hell, I'm only 40 something years old!

I talk to them like an adult who has done nothing wrong and wants to make sure we all collectively get through the rest of our day with a minimum of hassle. If I can be friendly or drop in a funny line in the process, great. Copping any sort of attitude or "I'm not a lawyer but I watch Law and Order religiously" sort of stance isn't gonna make things work out in your favor.

Most cops vaguely remember something in their training about aviation "crashes" being a Federal issue and something they're not supposed to get involved with other than "securing the scene". Expecting the average cop (or citizen) to understand that it's "no big deal" that an aircraft just landed in a local field isn't fair.

So to summarize, I'm not suggesting running off at the mouth with a "profusion of apologies". At the same time, "lawyering up" and providing only name/rank/serial number is probably a guarantee to a long afternoon. Deal fairly and frankly and assertively explain your rights if they come into question, and you'll probably walk away happy way more often than not.

P3

Yo Flub,

How many of these landouts have YOU actually done?



On Monday, July 15, 2013 7:06:47 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Monday, July 15, 2013 6:42:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>
> >You may have a right to be silent in your own home or on the public streets, but if you get caught on someone else's property you better be able to explain what you are doing there or the cops are within their rights to run you in.<
>
>
>
> I see no reason to say anything other than "I don't have an engine, I had no choice but to land here." Hand them ID, registration and insurance contact info. If the officer feels that you have broken a law, it is even more imperative to say nothing (and you most certainly do have the right to remain silent.) Your goal is to avoid wrongful conviction. Wrongful arrest is not the end of the world.
>
>
>
> Watch a few minutes of the video that I posted above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc and see how statements by innocent people get them wrongfully convicted. Do you think that you are smart/lucky enough to avoid saying something that could be misconstrued? Do you think you are smart enough to know when you can speak freely to an officer and when you cannot? It is a much safer bet in any encounter with law enforcement to say nothing and wait until you have professional legal counsel.

On Monday, July 15, 2013 6:22:26 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
> Yo Flub,
>
>
>
> How many of these landouts have YOU actually done?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, July 15, 2013 7:06:47 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> > On Monday, July 15, 2013 6:42:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >You may have a right to be silent in your own home or on the public streets, but if you get caught on someone else's property you better be able to explain what you are doing there or the cops are within their rights to run you in.<
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I see no reason to say anything other than "I don't have an engine, I had no choice but to land here." Hand them ID, registration and insurance contact info. If the officer feels that you have broken a law, it is even more imperative to say nothing (and you most certainly do have the right to remain silent.) Your goal is to avoid wrongful conviction. Wrongful arrest is not the end of the world.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Watch a few minutes of the video that I posted above https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc and see how statements by innocent people get them wrongfully convicted. Do you think that you are smart/lucky enough to avoid saying something that could be misconstrued? Do you think you are smart enough to know when you can speak freely to an officer and when you cannot? It is a much safer bet in any encounter with law enforcement to say nothing and wait until you have professional legal counsel.

Wow, you all are scaring the living you-know-what out of me. After 34 years and over 50 land-outs I never had the police on the scene. What I did find was incredible friendliness of land-owners, farmers and passers-by and any kind of help I would wish for. Has been mentioned before but don't forget to thank the landowner for providing this perfect runway for you, you'd be in a world of trouble if he hadn't. Call 911 of police if you think you should but I will continue to rely on humanity and reason.
Herb

On Saturday, July 13, 2013 9:18:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2013/jul/13/pilot-ok-but-under-arrest-after-glider-goes-down-on-badger-mountain/

Update:

I can understand why citizens might be concerned about civil rights issues. Law enforcement officers are charged not only with enforcing the law, but also protecting our rights. As you can see by the medical and fire vehicles in the photo, protecting life and property are at the top our priority list. In this case, the law does support the requirement that pilots provide permit or license information to law enforcement. The article was brief, yet the whole incident was fairly complex and there was more going on than most people would know. Had the pilot simply provided some rudementary information, our job would have been to make sure everyone was safe, help the pilot get his glider off the field, and ensure the farmer who owned the land was involved in the process and that his rights were respected. I am grateful the pilot was not injured, there was minimal property damage, and the landowner was extremely gracious in allowing the pilot's friends to remove the glider.

I've attached the RCW regarding the responsibilities of pilots. I hope anyone with questions or concerns about our operations will do me the service on giving me a call or stopping by our office.

Best Regards,

Sheriff Harvey Gjesdal

RCW 47.68.230

Aircraft, airman, and airwoman certificates required.

It shall be unlawful for any person to operate or cause or authorize to be operated any civil aircraft within this state unless such aircraft has an appropriate effective certificate, permit, or license issued by the United States, if such certificate, permit, or license is required by the United States, and a current registration certificate issued by the secretary of transportation, if registration of the aircraft with the department of transportation is required by this chapter. It shall be unlawful for any person to engage in aeronautics as an airman or airwoman in the state unless the person has an appropriate effective airman or airwoman certificate, permit, rating, or license issued by the United States authorizing him or her to engage in the particular class of aeronautics in which he or she is engaged, if such certificate, permit, rating, or license is required by the United States.

Where a certificate, permit, rating, or license is required for an airman or airwoman by the United States, it shall be kept in his or her personal possession when he or she is operating within the state. Where a certificate, permit, or license is required by the United States or by this chapter for an aircraft, it shall be carried in the aircraft at all times while the aircraft is operating in the state and shall be conspicuously posted in the aircraft where it may be readily seen by passengers or inspectors. Such certificates shall be presented for inspection upon the demand of any peace officer, or any other officer of the state or of a municipality or member, official, or employee of the department of transportation authorized pursuant to this chapter to enforce the aeronautics laws, or any official, manager, or person in charge of any airport, or upon the reasonable request of any person.

Seems pretty clear.

Anyone heard Vitek's perspective.

....I have been pulled over twice by bored cops curious about the "weird trailer".


Wiskey Bravo, "glider" people would pull you over, curious about the "weird trailer." :-)

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 12:18:18 AM UTC-4, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2013/jul/13/pilot-ok-but-under-arrest-after-glider-goes-down-on-badger-mountain/

So, based on what the sheriff said, if you do not produce identification, you will be arrested. I fly with my license in the side pouch of the glider. How many of you know how many documents are required inside an aircraft? A lot more than you think.

mas

In article >,
rlovinggood > wrote:

> ...I have been pulled over twice by bored cops curious about the "weird
> trailer".
>
>
> Wiskey Bravo, "glider" people would pull you over, curious about the "weird
> trailer." :-)

Hi Ray,

Yeah, I get that a lot. That and suggestions I solicit sponsorship from
purveyors of "adult toys".

Several years ago I landed out in a somewhat populated area (not your average cow pasture 50 miles from civilization, but near town). A sheriff car stopped on the road about 200 yards away and I walked over to meet them. They were curious about why a glider would land there, but when I explained that sometimes we don't read the wind right and can't get home to the airport one sheriff turned to the other and said, "hey, just like hot air balloons! They are at the mercy of the wind!" I didn't disabuse them of the notion -- just asked them to stop traffic when the trailer arrived so we could do a U-turn in the road and drive out to the glider. No harm no foul.

On Saturday, July 13, 2013 9:18:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2013/jul/13/pilot-ok-but-under-arrest-after-glider-goes-down-on-badger-mountain/

Hi fellow pilots,
Regarding the arrest and a citation of obstructing a law enforcement officer following my glider landout on July 12, 2013.
The County irrevocably dismissed the citation on July 29, while I agreed not to sue them. Thanks go to my lawyer.
Safe soaring, Vitek Siroky

On Wednesday, July 31, 2013 6:15:06 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Saturday, July 13, 2013 9:18:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>
> > http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2013/jul/13/pilot-ok-but-under-arrest-after-glider-goes-down-on-badger-mountain/
>
>
>
> Hi fellow pilots,
>
> Regarding the arrest and a citation of obstructing a law enforcement officer following my glider landout on July 12, 2013.
>
> The County irrevocably dismissed the citation on July 29, while I agreed not to sue them. Thanks go to my lawyer.
>
> Safe soaring, Vitek Siroky

Good news. Too bad about the hassle.

Frank Whiteley